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 Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)

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PostSubject: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:59 am

I made TheDawn to get back to the roots of why I enjoy playing Rappelz. That list of priorities is, in order of importance:

1) To have fun.
2) To play with friends and enjoy logging in.
3) To keep the game just that -- a game, not a job, or a child, or a garden or anything else that has to be constantly attended to.



TheDawn does not exist to exclude Destiny or Destiny members, but some of the things that Destiny has picked up recently are in direct conflict with the 3 things listed above.

1) Drama. TheDawn was formed to be low on drama if possible.
I'm sorry but everyone has a track record for drama and how they act when things flare up. This is just how we all act. I've found that this does not change for the most part. Therefore, I talked directly to a few of the most active friends I had in the game who were not drama-prone when forming the Dawn. Without these people wanting the same vision, I would not have made TheDawn. A few were asked directly to be a part of it, but everyone joined on their own decision.

2) Knowing all of your friends in the guild.
It's just hard to do this with a larger guild. The choices are kicking a ton of folks who don't deserve it, or setting out to start something from scratch. Both suck in many ways, but it's a choice all of us in TheDawn made. I hope you can respect that.

3) Keeping the leadership demands low.
The bigger the group, the bigger the demands on the leadership IF you want the group to all share a vision and stay unified. You can either have a large, ununified group, or a small unified one with low leadership demands. I don't think it's easy to do both without making leadership a full time job.



So, this is addressing Bellatrice and many others who may feel we have a grudge or something against Destiny. We don't, or at least I don't. It is not a guild that was functioning and was not on a path to functioning at the time that I left. I'm not here to tear down a guild or make an exclusive group or whatever else may have been said.



Since starting the guild, TheDawn has been effective in the three things I thought would make a good guild. Some may say drama is part of the game. It's not part of our game anymore. I'm sorry if that offends, it is not meant to. Everyone knows each other in the guild. I do not feel like this was a part of Destiny when I left. Maybe it has changed. When someone logs on, people TALK! I see more conversations in TheDawn in purple than when there were 3x as many people logged in when I was in Destiny. The group has a direction and it does not require a ton of work for the leaders. I could not get Destiny to that point with the number of players and cliques involved during the time that I was in Destiny.

Maybe it's my shortcomings as a leader. Maybe the guild had some issues. I'm sure there was some of both. I don't care, that's not what this game is about. A link popped up to Bella's Tee shirt designs on our forums. Most of the responses were "don't respond, not worth it." I think it's worth it because I don't think that I nor TheDawn has done anything to deserve that kind of nasty response.


I feel the exact same way, Bella. I put a lot of sweat, late nights, weekend sieges and effort into the guild that your boyfriend Bezildor worked so hard to make an AWESOME GUILD, and all I got was your stupid fucking tee shirt.
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:01 pm

Good to know you liked my design aswell ^^.

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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:16 pm

ZooZoo wrote:
So, this is addressing Bellatrice and many others who may feel we have a grudge or something against Destiny. We don't, or at least I don't. It is not a guild that was functioning and was not on a path to functioning at the time that I left. I'm not here to tear down a guild or make an exclusive group or whatever else may have been said.

I don't think you have a grudge, I think you ran away. That's one point, and it doesn't even adress you the most, but when destiny didn't "function" like you though it should, you ran away instead of trying a different approach. Anyway, that was your right and it is okay.

Now saying "I'm not here to tear down a guild or..." is nice to be said by you, but it doesn't change the fact, that even though destinys downfall wasn't all your work (it certainly wasn't!), your creation of TheDawn gave it the killing blow. Because you took most of the people who still had a chance to fix and change things away from it, by intent or not doesn't even rly matter here, fact is: you did.

I guess up to this date I might have had a chance to change over and join TheDawn, but I also guess you wouldn't have accepted my GF because many think she is a major source of drama and also I wouldn't have wanted to: your pking rule sucks: if I'm angered, I fight back and it is better to do it by /pkon (without asking for permission first), then doing it verbally and getting a ban for it, so guess even though I usually am pretty low on drama, I would have been wrong for you.

Anyway: stop justifying yourself, this just makes it look like there actually is something to blame you for - like maybe your intentions were not as pure and innocent as you say they were - you wouldn't want things to look that way, right?

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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:00 pm

this isn't really my argument but since it affects me and has affected me i feel i should give a little input.

First off i sympathise and agree with what Zoo did. But if im honest i dont like the outcome. I would never have come to destiny if i knew it was going to turn out like this. I have played alot of rappelz thiese last few days and ive barely seen anyone on - at the most 3 or 4. I think about what has happened, and i know i dont fully understand destiny's ( and that of its members) history, and all i see was that the majority of the high level destiny players left and joined thedawn. Its easy to be slightly resentful, but i do understand your reasons and thinking about that its people who actually act towards achieving goals, rather than just sitting back and wishing they would just happen. However I must say that the way you did it though seems, from the point of view of someone who might not fully understand your reasons, a bit disdainful.

Evidently there are people who have different feelings towards this than i do. But please can i ask for you to be sympathetic. I am left with a dilemma here, to stay or not to stay? I am here with some good friends but admittedly thats not enough. Like i said before the last couple of days theres barely been anyone online. Its not the first time ive tried to get away from that aspect of being in a guild. But since the majority of people have left everything has calmed down but we now have the reputation as being dead. Again ive been in this situation before and as a leader as well. I was in fallen and tried for a while to revive it but i failed. I know how hard it can be to restart a guild. It appears though that it will either take alot of time to grow again or it will fail. The reason i left fallen was to get away from this situation and here i am again lol. THIS IS A GAME DAM IT!!! It should not be spent doing something you dont like. The only reason im still here is out of respect to my friends.
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:18 pm

cba
tl;dr
for all of it
basically destiny couldn't be fixed without being a cunt.
so he left made his old guild and built it around the principles of destiny when it was really destiny.
SOOO CY@~~~~~~~~~
man i haven't logged into crappelz in agesss
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:30 pm

Zoo deserves to PLAY a GAME, not WORK as though its a JOB.

What he does is his choice, free will and all that jazz. He may have had an ulterior motive but its still his choice.

I think he did the right thing, Destiny is dying and nothing will stop it, it had a good run, just give up arguing. It won't change anything, it will just fuck it all up Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:16 pm

First, run away? How many times have I attempted to rally the guild into turning the negative energy around? Both in the guild forum and many times in the leaders forum. What do you propose I am running away from?

Drama? You cannot fix drama without a change of heart on the part of those involved. I asked how I could fix the drama. I asked how I could get help from more leaders on the issues. I took a break from the guild. When the issues did not resolve after months of my saying "if it doesn't improve, I may have to leave" I did in fact leave. You may not have seen these discussions because they were on the leaders board but Bellatrice, and any of the other leaders can affirm my feelings on that subject. I did not hide my disdain for drama.


As for dealing the crushing blow to Destiny, do you place that in my hands? Could I pull everyone of the Dawn members strings and make them leave a guild they have passionately been involved with for YEARS? I think you underestimate your friends' own decisions. If they did not say that there were major issues for them in Destiny, I know from several that they did not want to leave blaming someone or having someone feel bad. Many would rather leave on a good note with a goodbye and a best wishes.


I came to many of these members months ago in the Destiny leaders forum discussing creating a new guild similar to what TheDawn is. The reply was a resounding NO! Everyone felt so strongly about this guild that the thread was closed in a day or two because the decision had been made. So these guys and girls have strong love for Destiny and what it meant as a guild. I do not fancy myself someone to lead anyone against their will into a guild.





I'll post this now, and it's for people like Brendo who liked the guild and have had to deal with the drama that has resulted from TheDawn accepting a significant number of Destiny members.

I am sincerely sorry for the grief and headache and issues that TheDawn has caused Destiny and its members who have had no involvement in the whole deal. When forming TheDawn, its very nature of being designed to be small causes so many friends and friends of friends to be excluded. Either because the rules are quite rigid in some regards, or because we all want to keep it small so everyone knows everyone. This is not something that anyone considered lightly, and I know that by not having said it or apoligizing for it, it seems like we did not even consider you guys and what all of this does to you.

But, let me say now so there is no confusion: Myself, Chibi, Stefan, Richnox, and Scorp ALL talked for a long time over the fact that many people who are undeserving will be excluded or will feel excluded from TheDawn. None of us thinks lightly of this. I cannot think of a single thing that sucks more than to have a friend make a guild that is more or less closed, or to recruit a friend of yours but not you, or to see your guild which consisted of many friends begin to have arguments against one another. That just sucks, there's no two ways around it, it just sucks. Every one of us wishes there was a way to avoid it. For my part, I am sincerely sorry for the players who have been split between friends or left out or feel left out.



The last thing, before I end this longer-than-expected post. If anyone has questions, comments, or thoughts on TheDawn, what we have done, or our reasons or motivations, ask them here and now and I will answer as politely as I can. What you decide about me or TheDawn at that point is your own right.
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:58 pm

Heya zoozoo, well my opinion is, you wanted something different, didnt wait for others to do it, made it yourself and got others to join whos opinion was the same, i got nothing aghaist it. If ppl left they left cuz they had theyr reasons, either being sick of the situation, other ppl, monotony, drama, whatever. I do think tho, that each and every 1 should give an explanation as why they leave, thats my opinion, because i think its the right thing to do. I do not blame you or others for nothing. I did not leave Destiny because i didnt felt like it, i considered it, but in the end i decided i should give it a shot and stay and try to make it better, thats my choice, no1 elses, also, i stay because i have friends here, relationships that started in rappelz and even carried on into RL, resulting in a lot of fun. Thats what this is all about, fun, an escape to a more, or less, boring day to day routine.

Now fck all this Drama, get on your toons, play and have fun.

And evry1 Gz me R6...took me 3 years, but meh, the hell with it Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:01 am

GZ Disturbia, and see ya in game on my toon. (=
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:49 am

I wasn't planning to post, but I refuse to just sit back and watch Zoo take a solo beating for something that isn't his fault.

IMO, it's completely unfair to say that Zoo "ran away" from the problems in Destiny. Zoo did FAR more for Destiny than almost any other past Destiny guild leader. He put in SO much effort - YEARS worth of effort! - to try to improve the guild, organize events, find ways to bring the guild together, etc. and he spent so many nights banging his head on the wall trying to figure out how to fix the things that were going wrong. But he's not a god; he has feelings too, and there's only so much you can put up with before you decide it's time to throw in the towel. To be completely honest, I'm surprised Zoo didn't leave sooner than he did.

Also, it's not fair to blame Zoo for "taking away" the former Destiny members who ended up joining TheDawn. When I was still in Destiny, Zoo never asked me to leave Destiny and join the new guild he was going to make, not once. In fact, he said that he DIDN'T want to ask me to join his guild, because he didn't want me to leave Destiny for his guild and thus make things worse in Destiny. He never said "Chibi, I hope you'll consider joining TheDawn" or anything like it, until after I had typed /gleave and was guildless. IIRC, he didn't even make a guild called TheDawn until after I had left Destiny. The reason why TheDawn is so strict on who it lets into the guild in the first place, is not only because we want to keep it small, but also because Zoo didn't want everybody to abandon Destiny and join TheDawn. I suppose you guys won't believe it looking at TheDawn's guild roster, but that's the truth. All of us in TheDawn joined TheDawn on our own terms, and it was our own decision; so if you want to blame our guild for Destiny's fall, blame all of us in TheDawn instead of pointing fingers only at him.

RyanaBanks wrote:
Anyway: stop justifying yourself, this just makes it look like there actually is something to blame you for - like maybe your intentions were not as pure and innocent as you say they were - you wouldn't want things to look that way, right?

Zoo isn't trying to justify himself; he's trying to explain why he made TheDawn so that everybody can understand and hopefully will have less hurt feelings all around (although the way this is going, that's probably an impossible dream). Please don't imply that Zoo had some ulterior motive and wanted to make a new guild at Destiny's expense, or something like that. If he didn't care about the people in Destiny, he wouldn't bother trying to explain things (case in point: DoctorClaw/Warlord).

For a very long time after Zoo left Destiny, he was still looking out for Destiny and the people in it. Most of other the former Destiny members who are now in TheDawn (Stefan, Richnox, Scorp, etc.) are people who LOVED Destiny while they were in it, and who did their very best for Destiny up until the moment they left the guild. You will never hear anyone in TheDawn talking trash about Destiny, because for almost all of us, Destiny is a guild that we all cherished and that was our home for a very, very long time. Personally, I know I could never hate on a guild that I poured so much of my love and effort into, and even up until now I defended Destiny whenever I heard people talking trash about it. So yes, for me it's pretty sad to see Destiny members taking stabs at TheDawn, because it's coming from a guild we all used to love and care about so much.

I said it before when I left Destiny, but it's exactly this kind of pointless drama that made me leave in the first place. No matter what's said or done, the drama always happens, everybody is angry with each other, and nobody is any happier after it ends. :/ I decided to join TheDawn because Zoo had a vision for a guild that was drama-free. You can call me selfish or a coward for not sticking it out in Destiny if you want, but I did what I felt I had to do in order to keep my sanity, and I don't regret my decision. I only regret that my leaving Destiny, along with the others who have left, has hurt people's feelings and has had such a negative impact on the newer members of Destiny who never asked for any of this drama. For that, I am truly sorry.

P.S. GZ Disturbia on R6!!! I'm so happy for you! ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:16 am

Is this all because of the merchandise I made? Or there's something else behind it?

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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:13 am

Hmm if i may have a say in this, despite being among the more insignificant members of this guild,Destiny, i'd like to say that my most critical thought of such a predicament (should it be considered so) would be: the drama between Destiny and TheDawn, is only obvious, and natural. in attempt to express myself in as little words as i may otherwise - in contrast to the above posts, i hope (edit: apparently which i failed to do, lol) : i do find your wish and/or attempts to settle the drama between Destiny and TheDawn admirable (to a certain point), but sadly hopeless, although i personally appreciate your positive attitude/approach.

when i say that this grudge (my apologies if the word is poorly chosen) is natural, i mean that when a portion of a faction leaves for a separate faction, relations toward the receiving faction turn negative. In this case, a great portion was lost to TheDawn, and, simply put, Destiny did not like it. This is a form of envy - and it is natural in such a way that is not too different from that envy found in our human nature. Zoo - i do not no if you knew this before, but that post you made here in these forums about the creation of your new guild was parasitic to Destiny's morale. And in effect, Destiny (if i perceived it correctly) would search for something/someone to blame for the negative outcome. If you dislike this grudge, maybe it would be foresight which you lacked.

i have refrained from expressing my disappointment in the effect(s) of your cause for sometime now. Inevitably, whether it was within your intentions or not, what has happened is now the past and is what it is. From my viewpoint, a mere conversation such as this is a futile notion to deter Destiny's/my feelings toward TheDawn's effect on Destiny. This post is only making it more apparent of our defeat (which i reluctantly feel and now express) and has brought anger to my heart.

But your notion, if sincere, is still appreciated (at least from me). "Rappelz still is a game" - this is only too true. But for the folks who care for Destiny are still hurt - those that might have taken this Game to be something more serious (maybe even a lifestyle, for those die-hard addicts such as i <x)...). The fact that this crisis is related to the rise of TheDawn (oh how that fits the context ^^ lol) (pun intended =x) is undeniable. I believe i have ranted enough - beyond which i intended, so i will conclude this post with one more sentence personally to you, Zoo: Thank you for trying; you have done your share for Destiny.
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:24 am

well for the record i dont have any negative opinions about thedawn or its members. I know what a drama free guild is like, been in one twice now and yeah compared to this its worth fighting for lol.

Well i guess thats all i need to say. I hope i see some of thedawn guys/gals on my way up the levels since i didnt really get to know any of you since i was in destiny. Wink

peace guys
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:49 am

if i was still playing i would probably left aswell because people here tend to forget an important thing ...

FRIENDS > Guild

it's a chain reaction you can't stop and if you start drama for the first one who leaves ... well ... makes it a lot easier for the next person to leave. i might not make sense here but well ... i don't have to Razz Razz


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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:12 am

BamBam wrote:
if i was still playing i would probably left aswell because people here tend to forget an important thing ...

FRIENDS > Guild

it's a chain reaction you can't stop and if you start drama for the first one who leaves ... well ... makes it a lot easier for the next person to leave. i might not make sense here but well ... i don't have to Razz Razz
thanks bambam, this explains in simple words WHY i changed my 'NEVER leaving destiny' to a 'byebye'.
i wanna say sorry to belle, cuz my flame towards you wasnt fair, i was just pissed.
but yea i felt like the last core member in destiny b4 i left, and i kinda was. in my 'goodbye thread' i posted sooo many names of ppl i spent most of my time playing with... and all been inactive on in the dawn.
friendship will always win...
ive always fought for destiny and i wont accept any accuses that i didnt... been in this guild and leading it for longer than most of you can even imagine. and i was always fair to everyone, otherwise i wouldve just kicked two dramaqueen (who now have red name on this forums) and alot of ppl would still be in destiny and it would run still... but i didnt cuz thats not the way things should work. (and belive me alooot of ppl requested via pm to do so)... so i took the other way and went with my friends.
again: sorry for my flame, but keep in mind we as a group of friends didnt leave just for lols or something like that.

bye.
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:13 am

Also there's only drama if you allow it to be here ... I remember back in the days when bez was still here, at the start of destiny it was really simple how drama was dealt with.

1: drama
2: try to solve it by talking about the issue
3: kick out if it wasn't solved

that way they had 7 days to think about a way to solve their issues and it kept drama out of the guild ...
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:45 am

stefanLusT wrote:
otherwise i wouldve just kicked two dramaqueen (who now have red name on this forums)

And here goes to you, too: did you ever tell those two (I'll just pretend it isn't me this is about) what the problem was? Did you ever try to actually solve it with them?

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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:21 am

you all are a bunch of babys -.-.
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:03 am

Belletrice wrote:
Is this all because of the merchandise I made? Or there's something else behind it?

I think all the passionate replies from people in Destiny or TheDawn prove that this is a BIG issue. I'll come right out and address it, and I'd welcome whoever else to do the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:22 am

ZooZoo wrote:
Belletrice wrote:
Is this all because of the merchandise I made? Or there's something else behind it?

I think all the passionate replies from people in Destiny or TheDawn prove that this is a BIG issue. I'll come right out and address it, and I'd welcome whoever else to do the same.

i completely agree. Alot of stuff has been said, in this thread and the other one, and a simple tshirt could not be the cause of this - rather a catalyst maybe.
For what its worth, my advice is (just like zoo says) come out and say whats on your mind now whether its in private or not. Get what you need to say out now so this can all be solved and we can all get back to the fun of the game. But at the same time as giving your opinion, be forgiving to others giving their own. It should not be like this guys... but as it is like this, its best to put this at an end as best we can. I would be happy to think that these issues between destiny and thedawn can be fixed now so that i can go back to the game without feeling cautious of another outbreak. Im sure others feel the same.
However i think most have gotten stuff off their chests already. If anyone happens to need help lemme know
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:20 am

its a game who gives a fcuk -.- sticks and stones.....

you all take things far to personal
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:30 am

RyanaBanks wrote:
stefanLusT wrote:
otherwise i wouldve just kicked two dramaqueen (who now have red name on this forums)

And here goes to you, too: did you ever tell those two (I'll just pretend it isn't me this is about) what the problem was? Did you ever try to actually solve it with them?
yes and i failed.
and i couldnt kick any1... failed at that too.
so i gave up cuz im a bad single guildleader. thats it. sorry.
and now im finally out.
@pebbles: gtf back ingame cerbs been on sale, they r cheap now...
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:45 am

stefanLusT wrote:
RyanaBanks wrote:
stefanLusT wrote:
otherwise i wouldve just kicked two dramaqueen (who now have red name on this forums)

And here goes to you, too: did you ever tell those two (I'll just pretend it isn't me this is about) what the problem was? Did you ever try to actually solve it with them?
yes and i failed.
and i couldnt kick any1... failed at that too.

This isn't about blaming you - I still consider you one of my friends ingame, hope I'm not wrong there - it is just about so many ppl saying "toothy is to blame for the many folks who left" but nobody ever tried talking to her in a fair and considerate way, giving her probably the benefit of the doubt and asking her if she even knew what she does.

I know my GF isn't easy to handle, but I also know she doesn't want to hurt people and if you talk to her nicely, she usually thinks about it. Agressive blame giving up to the point where she tearfully tells me how much of a monster she is - that is NOT right. This is not about you here but about antje and fazi - gz yourself on that - but I still think many of these issues could have been resolved, would ANY of you had the guts to open your mouth at the right time in the right way.

What I blame you for is now saying it was all her fault when nobody EVER took the effort to actually talk things through with her.

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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:11 pm

Pebbles wrote:
its a game who gives a fcuk -.- sticks and stones.....

you all take things far to personal

yeah lmao your so right, but look whats happened!! not as simple as just turning a blind eye i guess
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PostSubject: Re: Why I made TheDawn (because I guess it's necessary)   Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:04 pm

All of the past is the past and it's worth just leaving at that for the sake of resolving the issue at hand IMO.


I'd rather spend less time rehashing what has happened and stirring up everyone's sore memories.


TheDawn does not hate Destiny, and generally what I hear about when people talk about Destiny and the people involved are all good memories. We don't have a plan to break up or recruit players from Destiny. If a member applies that's what they want to do, but we are specifically not recruiting at the moment. We consider anyone who wants to be considered, but except for the first 4 members listed, I have not contacted anyone about the guild. From Destiny or anywhere. We have 37 people in our guild and by a lot of peoples' opinions, that is a fantastic number to be at.


I hope that everyone gets back to the basics in their game and focuses on what causes them to have fun. This is probably their friends and their equipment and parties and chatting and stuff like that. It's probably not as much fun to dig around in the past and hate on someone else and get into forum threads like this that just end up in bickering.


I came here to address the facts surrounding the creation of TheDawn. If someone has some questions or unresolved issues about TheDawn they can probably talk to Bellatrice and I personally and get a good idea of what happened more or less. That should clear things up good enough. On that note, I'd like to request that a Destiny admin close this thread and for everyone to get back to whatever makes them happy.



Cheers,
Zoo
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